Kinetico K5 vs. Hague H3500?

[EssentialMinerals]

Both of these models appear to be quality-oriented RO systems. What are the most significant differences? A Google search turned up the the following non-specific

Thanks

[Andy CWS]

The Hague RO is a very nice unit; we sell and service these. I like the standard membrane pump (non-electric) that provides for better production than most RO systems, by increasing pressure and keeping it steady. This allows for higher production rates and less concentrate down the drain.

I noticed on the link that incoming temperature is listed at 62F. NSF testing is done at 77F but most household water supplies are around 55-58F. Temperature has a big influence in RO production.

I'm not sure ho they calculated 3.1. gallons in the tank considering the bladder and the size of the tank, but...

The K5 has numerous differences in technology, features and therefore benefits.

First of all, the membrane has unto a ten-year warranty (following a Kinetico-new/used). The reason Kinetico feels confident here is that the K5 membrane has an automatic 'EverClean Rinse' system that flushes the membrane every time the tank tops off. The key thing that damages membranes is the concentrate water 'resting' against the membrane during shutdown time. By rinsing the membrane with RO water, it will last into the next decade with higher quality water.

The filters are another unique feature. They are metered. All the permeate water traveling through the final filter is metered and at a given quantity, the system shuts down prohibiting filter exhaustion.

Also, there are four filter cartridge sections for additional filtration to customize for specific water quality problems. These includes filters for treating arsenic, perchlorate, VOC, virus/bacteria (only one certified NSF’s protocol P231), and a calcium/magnesium sacrificial element, among other combinations.

Although proprietary filters (filter housing and element combination) are not unique, the Hague still uses spin-off types. Two issues have been found with these. Lower quality generic filters might be replaced and many users do not sanitize housings at filter change time. K5 filters are factory sealed and sanitation is not required.

Filters snap in and out without tools. The Hague still needs a filter wrench and can be over tightened making it difficult to remove at times.

All lines on the K5 are 3/8" providing high rate of production and a very fast flow rate at the designer faucet, about 1/2 gpm. The Hague still uses 1/4" lines.

The warranty on the parts for a K5 is ten years. I know Hague has a limited 25-year on their softener but I would have to look up their RO assurance.

Another key feature is the WOW (water on water) tank. All other RO tanks use an air bladder with 5-9psi. A three-gallon tank usually contains around 1.25 gallons due to bladder displacement. As these tanks begin to empty the pressure (and flow rate) at the faucet lessens until it dribbles. These are particularly a problem when sending water to remote locations and fridge ice-makers.

Many new fridges actually state in owner's manuals NOT to run RO water to them due to pressure loss. New fridges often have a shut off solenoid and if water flow is inadequate, ice trays don't fill properly.

Bladders commonly get water-logged and many are sealed like Hague's. When that happens, the whole tank needs to be replaced.

Kinetico's WOW tank has eliminated these problems by using household water pressure (30-60psi) to drive water to faucets and remote locations. An additional special small booster tank placed before the fridge can be added to assist difficult fridges but I haven't found this necessary, yet.

In a three-gallon tank, the K5 has 2.7 gallons. Flow is constant until the tank is completely empty. When the tank refills, there is no air bladder pushing against it, so it refills very quickly. Actually daily rate on normal household pressure and temperature is rated at 41 gpd. Multiple tanks can be added.

Installation is quite quick and the installer can flush filters before he leaves the job as there is enough water produced by then. All other systems, we need to pre-fill the tanks at the shop to do the flush.

Bladder styles tanks need to be nearly empty before they start to refill. I think it is about a 60% pressure drop but I'll have to check. The K5 refills immediately. So if you fill a glass of water, a pitcher or three gallon milk jugs, the tank refills completely. What happens when the tank tops off, the membrane cleans itself, again.

Concentrate water is from 1.8 to 2.2 gallons per permeate gallon, which makes it very efficient.

PALL, a blood filtering company, has long developed a virus and bacteria filter for dialysis. They searched for a reliable RO to develop and decided to work with Kinetico to provide a filtering system like no other in the world. NSF has certified the K5 to remove virus 4-log and bacteria 7-log for a full 3500 gallons, Kinetico recommends changes at 2000 gallons, or every four filter changes (metered at 500 gal.) These Purefecta filters can be used even on boil alerts or micro-biologically challenging.

Although the Purefecta filter needs to be changed by a trained technician as a sanitization procedure is required, it is still a one-of-a-kind water treatment system especially designed for dentist offices, immune deficiency patients, or those who just want the absolute best in drinking water.
I agree with Hague’s link that it is better than the ROs pictured, but they weren’t showing the K5, were they? It’s early, but we haven’t had one call back on any K5 since they were introduced 1.5 years ago.

http://www.nsf.org/business/drinking_water_systems_center/pdf/Kinetico_Purefecta_VS.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XOLiHReHVs

Yes, the Hague is a fine RO, but the K5 offers quite a bit.


Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[EssentialMinerals]

Andy,

Thank you for the very comprehensive reply. You obviously know a great deal about RO systems. It would have taken a very long time for a homeowner like myself to discover so many significant differences.

The K5 looks to be an excellent choice. I have some follow-up questions:

You wrote about the K5:
1.) "Multiple tanks can be added."
I take it that a larger WOW tank, if needed, is currently not available - correct? Is the 2.7 gallon usable capacity large enough for most residential applications?

2.) "Concentrate water is from 1.8 to 2.2 gallons per permeate gallon, which makes it very efficient."
Per the K5 spec sheet:

• "Efficiency Rating**: 24.37%"
• Discharge Water/Product Water Ratio: 3 to 1

What accounts for this difference?

3.) Out of curiosity, what brand/model are the other ROs that are pictured in the Hague comparison? One is a Culligan. I don't recognize the other three.

Thanks again!

[Gary Slusser]

Andy is a Kinetico salesman, and now he has said he also sells Hague...

Anyway, the Kinetico K5 RO is overpriced by a large margin, I hear they get $1500 for it. And you can't buy parts from anyone other than their one'n only local dealer. Same for Hague.

Any store bought $180-200 50 gal/day RO will do what you want done as long a you change the cartridge filters every 6 months. When the membrane needs to be changed, you could buy a whole new store bought RO with your substantial savings. Kinetico says their membrane has a 10 year warranty.... If it were me, I'd like to hear from someone that has had their membrane replaced under warranty after the first 3-5 years before I bought into that. There may be a serious problem with that because the K5 is brand new.

[EssentialMinerals]

Gary,

Which of the cost-effective ROs has all the of following attributes?

• Is the most water efficient
• Has the option of a mineral cartridge
• Is not likely to leak due to lower-quality plastic parts
• Has NSF system certification

And how long is such a unit likely to last?

[Andy CWS]

I can't say which are most efficient. Rule of thumb is those with a membrane pump will perform better.

I a only familiar with the K5 as having a mineral cartridge as a standard option.

Spin-off filters are the biggest cause of leaking. Bad o-rings and over tighening the filter housing cause some problems. Integrated components are a nice feater like with WATTS, Culligan and Kinetico units.

NSF, WQA, UL, Biovir Labs and other third-party testing a validation organizations offer much assurance that quality has been tested and passed. These are drinking water systems, so I prefer they meets the highest standards.

Two factors of testing, though are systemic testing and component testing. Component testing is where one item, say the 3-gallon tank has been certified, which is good, but the system has not. Ads can carry the NSF logo but just FYI on the total unit quality.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

Gary,

Which of the cost-effective ROs has all the of following attributes?

• Is the most water efficient
• Has the option of a mineral cartridge
• Is not likely to leak due to lower-quality plastic parts
• Has NSF system certification

And how long is such a unit likely to last?

1. I don't know, but if it were mine I wouldn't want one because good water has no taste, it's things in the water that give it a good or bad taste. If you want good water for health reasons, then take your medicine without complaint and get on with life... lol

2. I've never had an inexpensive RO leak because actually, they all use the same "quality plastic"; PVC is PVC.

3. All are rated NSF Standard 61 for potable water use but probably none are "certified", which is understandable to me because to me, "certification" is nothing more than a very expensive marketing program designed to attract certain customers. And the equipment prices reflects the "certification but, the product water really is very little to no different. Also, certification really does not mean the thing will perform in your house, on your water with it's quality, pressure and temperature as it did in the lab with their spiked water with (probably) higher temp (77f normally) and exactly 500 ppm TDS etc. etc. etc..

[EssentialMinerals]

Quality of Cost-effective ROs?

The reason I asked about the quality of cost-effective ROs is because of customer reviews I've read about two popular models:

Kenmore Elite 38556 - Sears customer reviews

"I bought the Elite Reverse Osmosis RO system to replace an early Kenmore RO. The Elite unit is a vast improvement. I installed the Elite in place of the earlier model. Leak check found a failure INSIDE the cover of the unit. Fortunately, I was willing and able to repair an incomplete collet connection at the unit outlet. I expected more from Sears, but with the repair I made I am satisfied with the unit as installed."

"I ordered this unit on line and picked up at local Sear's store. It took about 7 days to arrive. The unit appeared to have been a return, because the facet had water in it and one of the hoses still connected to it. Once I completed the installation. The blue line from the unit to the facet leaked. It doesn't have as much room to engage the seal as other connections in the unit. Normally the hose will go in 1/4" after initial contact with the connection, but on the facet, it is only 1/8" and is difficult to enage. That is probably where the original purchaser had the problem and returned the unit. The tank is only 2.4 gallons not 4 gallons as listed on information sheet."

Whirlpool Gold WHER25 Lowes customer reviews

"Lowe's does not stock the RO membrane"

"My criticism would be the water inlet line to the counter faucet. The line is plastic and, after a period of time, the line cracks at the connector, allowing water to leak and follow the line down to the floor, flooding your floor. This crack in the line develops after a period of months of normal use. "Secondly, price of replacement cartridges is high, and the availability is low"

"dismayed by the hard to find and expensive filters."

"Unit is poor quality and uses proprietary components. Leaks like a sieve and can't replace their fittings with any quality. Don't frustrate yourself, move on and find better. I am returning it tomorrow."

"The water inlet accepts 1/4" tube instead of industry standard 3/8".

"Compare systems - I wish I had. Can not buy replacement filters on-line, and have to check store availability for filters. Can only use WP specific filter - not generics. Probably will replace whole system soon, next time filter replacements are due."

"This unit has 3 filters, 2 WHEERF pre/post filters, and 1 WHEERM Reverse Osmosis filter. The WHEERM Reverse Osmosis filter has NOT been available at any of our local Lowes while the new unit and pre/post filters are. An employee said "We've not been able to get the RO filter for a very long time". I cannot recommend this unit for that reason."

[Andy CWS]

Although leaks are not frequent, they are certainly not uncommon. I would more common than water-logged tanks. We come across them often enough to watch out for them. On my follow up calls, I specifically look for any sign of leaks. We replace many ROs that have had leaks.

Those who work in the industry on the service end (rather than just in sales) will tell you that it is often a problem and many companies have a waiver for customers to sign to avoid damage claims from leaking ROs.

A higher quality unit is not exempt form leaks so observation should take place, especially shortly after installation. As I said before, I have seen may leaks around he filter housings as o-ring deteriorate. Freezing, aging & wear and poor maintenance can also be culprits. Many ROs are placed under sinks and shifted around among all those cleansers. Sometimes a line gets kinked or pulled.

Yes, leaking can be a problem.

Those reviews were interesting, thanks
Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Thanks for the PM, I agree with your thoughts. I hope I was able to help.

[Gary Slusser]

Comparing big box store brand Ros to ROs I and other dealers sell is an unfair comparison. Big box brands are not the same quality. And I seriously doubt that Hague was it, is comparing to them.

I sold and installed many ROs over 18 years as a local dealer. As far as leaks from kinked lines, mishandling, freezing etc. etc. as has been mentioned, I don't see that as a fault of the RO. I see that as poor operation and maintenance by the owners. I installed my ROs so kinks etc. were very unlikely and instructed all members of the household how to prevent doing things that cause leaks.

I have never seen or heard of bad o-rings except those that leaked because they were not taken care of when replacing cartridges etc.. And I certainly wouldn't replace an RO because of tubing or o-ring leaks, I'd replace the tubing or o-ring.

[EssentialMinerals]

Given your professional experience, which of the cost-effective ROs are less likely to have the issues mentioned by the Kenmore/Sears & Whirlpool/Lowes customers? Thanks

[Gary Slusser]

I have no idea, my no brand name industry standard, off the shelf, ROs are low priced (=<$200) but I've never had the problems the links allude to.

Personally I think people with little to no common sense are the ones that have those problems and they'd have problems with any RO, it doesn't matter what the "quality" the RO is.

Buy an RO from WalMart etc. and follow the instructions and pay attention to detail after the installation and look for potential problems and prevent them before they become a problem. Or, pay over a $1000 and depend on a local dealer to mop the floor if it leaks because someone kinks tubing or pulls it 'til it leaks.

[duckdive117]

Alot of reverse osmosis systems are very similar. Almost all are made in China or Taiwan or the parts are and there assembled in the US some are better quality then others depending on the quality of the manufacturing in china or Taiwan. Then K5 is nothing more then a 3 stage RO with the option of adding on specific filters for you needs, witch can be done to any RO on the market just not quite as easy. The NSF and WQA gold seals are a joke most companys that dont have them is simply due to the fact it is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE to do so not cause the quality of the RO, its actually very easy to get a NSF rating or WQA gold seal rating. Most companys use a NSF approved membrane and components to build there ROs just the RO as a whole is not nsf approved. The Hague RO seems to be nothing more then a Permeate pump RO witch can improve efficiency by 400% as an RO fills the tank it makes less pure water and more drain water this does not happen with the permeate pump cause its pumping the water into the tank so there is no back pressure on the membrane. It will also allow the tank to hold more water at a higher PSI.

[Andy CWS]

I agree, a lot of ROs are pretty much the same and many very well be made in China or other low income and quality control places.

I don't think you know anything about the K5 or you could not compare it as the same as all other ROs. You missed a half dozen unique features and associated benefits.

I feel the WQA, UL, BioVir Labs, NSF, etc., ratings are very important to provide the customer with assurances that production and quality is monitored. The K5 is tested as a standing unit, not just tank or membrane but actually in-home set-up. I find that most people who critize scientific ratings are those that prefer to sell units that have either failed those tests or have never been tested. No assurance of quality, which is very important when it comes to drinking water.

When you say: Most companys use a NSF approved membrane and components to build there ROs just the RO as a whole is not nsf approved.

I don't see your point. Are you saying that is good if a cheap, knock-off product uses certified membranes and tanks?

[Gary Slusser]

Duckdive117 is totally correct.

Andy IMO the only reason you "feel" as you do is because you're a Kinetico salesman and sell the highly overpriced and overhyped $1500 Kinetico K5.