Is a RO system right for me

[timjet]

Hi Folks,

I live in central FL, have a well with terrible water due mostly to iron. I have installed a water softener, chlorine feed pump, 80 gal holding tank, and carbon filter. The system works well most of the time, but every once in a while I notice a little iron in the tap water. For this reason I have always used bottle water for drinking. I am getting tired of lugging the 5 gal water jugs from the car into the kitchen every 2 weeks and I also want to start using my refrigerators ice maker and stop buying ice which incidentally has gotten expensive.
So I'm thinking of installing an RO system that will supply water to my kitchen sink and refrigerator ice maker.
Is an RO system the proper filter to use for removing iron and bacteria which all well systems have. Again my system works pretty well but occasionally I do get a little iron in the water and will not drink it for this reason.
If an RO system is the proper filter to use please advise on a brand. I will pay a little extra to get a reliable system. Additionally, FL has many water treatment companies many of which do not understand the science of water treatment or are dishonest so I will install the system myself.

Thanks,
Tim

[Andy CWS]

Hi Folks,

I live in central FL, have a well with terrible water due mostly to iron.
Can you give us any numbers on your iron in ppm?

I have installed a water softener, chlorine feed pump, 80 gal holding tank, and carbon filter.
How hard is your water and what size is the softener. Do you know the make as well? Is the chemical feed pump connected to your pressure switch or is it a flow metered unit? Is it a diaphram or peristaltic type pump? Does your system have a testing port between the 80-gal retention tank and the backwashing filter? This is very important!

The system works well most of the time, but every once in a while I notice a little iron in the tap water.
By now the iron is most likely ferric {oxidized} iron, which would mean that it is passing through the chlorination system AND the softener. Something is not sized or set up properly. Or it needs some maintenance service.

For this reason I have always used bottle water for drinking. I am getting tired of lugging the 5 gal water jugs from the car into the kitchen every 2 weeks and I also want to start using my refrigerators ice maker and stop buying ice which incidentally has gotten expensive.
An RO would eliminate these problems for you.


So I'm thinking of installing an RO system that will supply water to my kitchen sink and refrigerator ice maker.
Not all ROs can supply ample water to today's new fridges, especially those with pneumatic storage tanks. In fact, many fridge makers strongly suggest NOT using ROs due to new fridge mechanisms that may inhibit ice making.

Is an RO system the proper filter to use for removing iron and bacteria which all well systems have.
Well yes and no. An RO WILL take out iron but it is not designed to do that and the membrane and other parts can be damaged, greatly shortening its service life.

A membrane's pores are much smaller than any bacteria and most viruses out there. RO are not generally rated as a microbiological barrier due to membrane failure over time. Studies have shown that some organisms, mysteriously, are able to pass through Thin Film Composite (TFC) type membranes. I know of one RO that has a special filter that is NSF certified as a microbiologiacl barrier against virus and bacteri up to 2000 gallons. It is not cheap but it works.


Again my system works pretty well but occasionally I do get a little iron in the water and will not drink it for this reason.
I would ask some further questions about your present system but will wait for your reply. Iron is not a health hazard but I can understand your relunctance and desire for improved drinking water.


If an RO system is the proper filter to use please advise on a brand. I will pay a little extra to get a reliable system. Additionally, FL has many water treatment companies many of which do not understand the science of water treatment or are dishonest so I will install the system myself.
Florida may not be the only place where dubious dealers can be found. Some dealers have WQA certified members and these can be found at www.wqa.org. I think the best ROs are those with membrane flushing systems, long warranty, high pressure at the faucet and fridge recommended. Other benefits can be found with membrane booster pumps, large retention capacity and fast refill abilities and with filter customization to match your changing water conditions.

Thanks,
Tim

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[timjet]

Hi Andy,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I haven't tested my water recently, but when I get home I will post the numbers that I do have. There are about 10 years old, but I doubt they have changed much.
The water is quite hard, though the softener does a good job of reducing this and I now have water that is a bit soft. I will also post the make and capacity of the softener when I get home.
The stenner chlorine feed pump injects chlorine just prior to the holding tank. It is the type with a tube that is squeezed as the motor rotates three knobs. Not sure what type of pump they call that but will find out. I replace the tube a #2, in the pump every 6 months. At the same time I must clean the injector because by that time it is nearly clogged with iron. There is a faucet between the holding tank and the softener. The chlorine pump is wired to come on and inject chlorine when the well pump low pressure switch starts the pump at about 20 psi. The water then goes to the softener and then the carbon filter. Another point, I am not careful about how much chlorine I put into the chlorine holding tank. I generally put about 2 gallons of chlorine in the I believe 10 gal tank and fill the rest with water, so it is diluted before being injected.
I notice iron in my water supply most notibly when I change the chlorine tube or drain and refill the 80 gal holding tank. The iron generally goes away after I reassemble the system and pass a couple of gallons through it. However sometimes I will see iron in the water for no apparent reason that will generally go away after leaving a tap on for a minute or 2.

Perhaps I am a little too concerned with the little bit of iron I occassionally see. It happens rarely but is impossible to predict, so we don't drink it. Would a system other than RO work as well or better and be cheaper and easier to install.

[timjet]

Hi Andy,

Here are the specifics of my system.
The water was tested 12 years ago an the numbers right out of the well are:
Iron: 7 ppm
Hardness: 22 grains
Tanin: 2 ppm
I doubt the water has changed much since it was tested.

I have a Fleck Model 2750 control valve on a 15 gal fiberglass tank for the carbon filter. It back washes or regenerates every 4 days

I have a Fleck Model 5600 control valve on a 10 gal fiberglass tank for the water softener. It regenerates every 3 days. It was re-bed 11 years ago.

The chlorine pump is a Stenner series 85 peristaltic pump that has a capacity of 17 gpd. I use a #2 tube. It feeds diluted chlorine from a 15 gal tank which I dilute by pouring in 2.5 gal of chlorine and fill the rest of the 15 gal tank with water. I am not very consistent with this dilution factor. The chlorine pump operates only when the well pump operates. The well pump comes on at 20 psi and off at 40 psi.

The water is routed from the well through the pressure switch to the pressure tank which has a head pressure of 18 psi. The water then is injected with chlorine and goes into a 120 gal fiberglass holding tank. The water then goes to the carbon filter and then the water softener and then on to the house.

The problem is I can't predict when I will see iron in the water. It may very well be that I have not been consistent with the chlorine dilution but when I do see iron in the water, running the tap a couple of minutes seems to clear it up. I have also not been consistent with cleaning the holding tank. However when I do clean it, it takes a while (day or two) to completely get the iron out of the tap water.

As I mentioned before, I have not drank the water since I have moved into this house. I would like to be able to eliminate the chore of purchasing water and just drink the tap water and use it for ice making.

Another possibility related issue is my water heaters anode rod only lasts about 2 years and then the water heater tanks starts to leak after about 3 years requiring a replacement.

Do you see anything that I have mentioned above that I am doing wrong, or am I being unreasonable to expect never to have iron showing in the water.

Thanks Andy,
Tim

[Andy CWS]

Hi Andy,

Here are the specifics of my system.
The water was tested 12 years ago an the numbers right out of the well are:
Iron: 7 ppm
Hardness: 22 grains
Tanin: 2 ppm
I doubt the water has changed much since it was tested.
Never assume that water has not changed. Get it tested again. I would hate to think you spent time and money adjusting it to the wrong configurations and wondering why the advise you were given didn't pan out.

Your iron is VERY high and additional or more frequent backwashing may be recommended. I don't see anything in your equipment to handle the tannins. Is your water coming out tea-like in color?

I have a Fleck Model 2750 control valve on a 15 gal fiberglass tank for the carbon filter. It back washes or regenerates every 4 days

I have a Fleck Model 5600 control valve on a 10 gal fiberglass tank for the water softener. It regenerates every 3 days. It was re-bed 11 years ago.
Are these regen times different: say one at 2:00AM and one at 4:00AM? It seems like your softener is a timer model...not a very good choice for either efficiency or capacity. You will either regen too often--wasting salt, or too late--leaving some of the problems that you are describing.

The chlorine pump is a Stenner series 85 peristaltic pump that has a capacity of 17 gpd. I use a #2 tube. It feeds diluted chlorine from a 15 gal tank which I dilute by pouring in 2.5 gal of chlorine and fill the rest of the 15 gal tank with water. I am not very consistent with this dilution factor. The chlorine pump operates only when the well pump operates. The well pump comes on at 20 psi and off at 40 psi.
Is there a 'test' valve between the retention tank and the carbon filter? This is a small valve you can open to sample the water before it reaches the carbon bed. If so, you can monitor the free chlorine levels and either adjust mixture or pump settings. If not, I recommend installing one; it is not difficult.

The water is routed from the well through the pressure switch to the pressure tank which has a head pressure of 18 psi.
18psi? What is the kick-in and -out of your pressure switch (i.e., 30/50)? Is this a static pressure tank (eg., a large galvanized tank) or a bladder type?

The water then is injected with chlorine and goes into a 120 gal fiberglass holding tank. The water then goes to the carbon filter and then the water softener and then on to the house.
Again, a test valve will be very helpful here. The water goes into the bottom and out the top, right? I have seen DIYers do it backwards.

The problem is I can't predict when I will see iron in the water. It may very well be that I have not been consistent with the chlorine dilution but when I do see iron in the water, running the tap a couple of minutes seems to clear it up. I have also not been consistent with cleaning the holding tank. However when I do clean it, it takes a while (day or two) to completely get the iron out of the tap water.
True, your solution concentration may be fluctuating and causing variable results.

Whatever iron you SEE at the tap has been oxidized to a degree that it has passed through the carbon filter (which is not the best choice for removing oxidized anything) and through the softener, which cannot remove precipitated iron completely, actually very poor at it.

Since it is passing through the softener, the resin bed may be fouled (holding back some iron by adsorption to the resins and when it becomes saturated, the iron is released into the plumbing and fixtures). Eventually the resins become damaged and break into small pieces which are then backwashed out. This significantly decreases the total volume of the resins further deminishing your water quality and increasing frustrations.

A softener rebed may in order, again. Do you know what your pH is before and after the system?

How old is the carbon bed??? Excessive chlorination can burn the carbon bed up quickly. These normally have a much shorter service life than softener resins--case by case.

As I mentioned before, I have not drank the water since I have moved into this house. I would like to be able to eliminate the chore of purchasing water and just drink the tap water and use it for ice making.

Setting up for not only drinkable water but excellent water can be done but first things first. You need to have the system tuned and adapted to effectively remove all the contaminants that an RO can remove but is not designed to (READ: will destroy the RO in short order)..

Another possibility related issue is my water heaters anode rod only lasts about 2 years and then the water heater tanks starts to leak after about 3 years requiring a replacement.

Another excellent reason why selecting the correct equipment AND having it set up properly will be a benefit and thus a wise investment. Could you please give a few more details on your case.

1. size of your softener - you gave gallons, but can you provide demensions...or I could do the math, I guess, but....
2. salt setting for the softener.
3. do you use an iron cleansing salt or additive?

Do you see anything that I have mentioned above that I am doing wrong, or am I being unreasonable to expect never to have iron showing in the water.
Sorry to have taken so long to get back with you. So tho answer your question on getting an RO--Wait till your whole house system is up and running. Is your system set up outdoors? What city do you live near in central FL?? We'll get this figured out for you.

Thanks Andy,
Tim

[timjet]

Hi Andy,
Again thanks for taking the time to help me figure this out.

The county is testing my well water and I should get the results back early next week. They however test only for bacteria so I am researching where I can get a full test of the well water.

Your iron is VERY high and additional or more frequent backwashing may be recommended. I don't see anything in your equipment to handle the tannins. Is your water coming out tea-like in color?
The iron concentration is very high. 99% of the time water is crystal clear. Just every once in a while I get the rust color in the water, which as you mentioned may be tannin, not iron. Further testing will be done. However unless I sample the water at the time I see the tea color, it probably won’t register.

Are these regen times different: say one at 2:00AM and one at 4:00AM? It seems like your softener is a timer model...not a very good choice for either efficiency or capacity. You will either regen too often--wasting salt, or too late--leaving some of the problems that you are describing.
I am not at home currently but I will check the regen times. I believe they are not the same because they regen at different intervals, the softener every 3 days and the carbon filter every 4 days. Both the softener and carbon filter are on timers.

Is there a 'test' valve between the retention tank and the carbon filter? This is a small valve you can open to sample the water before it reaches the carbon bed. If so, you can monitor the free chlorine levels and either adjust mixture or pump settings. If not, I recommend installing one; it is not difficult.
Yes there is a faucet between the retention tank and the carbon filter.

The water is routed from the well through the pressure switch to the pressure tank which has a head pressure of 18 psi.
18psi? What is the kick-in and -out of your pressure switch (i.e., 30/50)? Is this a static pressure tank (eg., a large galvanized tank) or a bladder type?
It is a bladder type tank with the pump pressure switch set to turn the pump on at 20 psi and off at 40 psi.

The water then is injected with chlorine and goes into a 120 gal fiberglass holding tank. The water then goes to the carbon filter and then the water softener and then on to the house.
Again, a test valve will be very helpful here. The water goes into the bottom and out the top, right? I have seen DIYers do it backwards.
Yes a test valve (faucet) is installed. The water does go in the bottom of the retention tank and out the top.

A softener rebed may in order, again. Do you know what your pH is before and after the system?
I will check the PH before the system. After the system it is 7.0

How old is the carbon bed??? Excessive chlorination can burn the carbon bed up quickly. These normally have a much shorter service life than softener resins--case by case.
I don’t know how old the carbon bed is, so I will assume it is at least 15 yr and probably more.


Could you please give a few more details on your case.

1. size of your softener - you gave gallons, but can you provide demensions...or I could do the math, I guess, but....
The softener dimensions are 8” dia by 46” high.
The carbon filter dimensions are 10” by 46” high.

2. salt setting for the softener.
I don’t know but will find out. I however use approx 1 40lb bag of salt every 2 weeks. 2 adults live in the house, no children.

3. do you use an iron cleansing salt or additive?
I mix 50/50 Morton salt in the green bags which have an iron cleansing additive and regular yellow bag morton salt pellets. Both are designed for salt systems.

Is your system set up outdoors? What city do you live near in central FL??
My system is indoors and I live in Land O’ Lakes, FL, about 20 miles North of Tampa.

A couple of questions before I get back with you on the water test results:
* Is is possible to change the Fleck valves on the softener and carbon filter from a timer type to a flow rate type without buying a whole new valve? Are the flow rate type reliable?
* Where can I get instructions on re-bedding the softener and carbon filter?
* What is the dilution rate for the 15 gal tank that the chlorine feed pump gets chlorine? As I mentioned I pour 2 ½ gal of chlorine that I purchase at the local pool supply store into the 15 gal tank and fill the rest with water. I guess the answer to this would be to test the chlorine content after the holding tank and before the carbon filter. What should I be reading?
* After the water goes through the carbon filter should the chlorine reading be 0?

Thanks again Andy
Tim

[Andy CWS]

I haven't forsaken you....just real bust these days...
Get back here soon,
Andy

[Andy CWS]

A couple of questions before I get back with you on the water test results:
* Is is possible to change the Fleck valves on the softener and carbon filter from a timer type to a flow rate type without buying a whole new valve? Are the flow rate type reliable?
* Where can I get instructions on re-bedding the softener and carbon filter?
* What is the dilution rate for the 15 gal tank that the chlorine feed pump gets chlorine? As I mentioned I pour 2 ½ gal of chlorine that I purchase at the local pool supply store into the 15 gal tank and fill the rest with water. I guess the answer to this would be to test the chlorine content after the holding tank and before the carbon filter. What should I be reading?
* After the water goes through the carbon filter should the chlorine reading be 0?

Thanks again Andy
Tim

Depending on the valve, you can adapt to a demand mode. http://www.excelwater.com/downloads/5600sm.pdf

Rebedding the tanks, although not simple, can be done at home by home owners. If you can remove the valve and a have a place to despose the used media, then know the volume to replace and finding a supplier would be the hard part. Instructions can be found on the net.

Yes, testing the chlorine levels between the tank and filter can help you adjust the solution. The chlorine here is the 'free' chlorine, or, the chlorine remianing after doing its job. Maintain between 0.2 and 0.8 ppm. If it gets up to 1.5, the carbon will deteriorate more quickly. Less, then the carbon will be working too hard to remove what the chlorine was meant to do.

The softener should be on a demand unit but the filter can remain a timer. If you go away for extended times (no water use), then shut the timer off and reset when you return.

***Are your outside faucets treated or untreated?

Andy

[timjet]

Andy,

My softener is set to recharge at a rate of 8 lbs per recharge. I just today reset the rate from 12 lbs from the recommendation of the local Culligan man.
He also does not recommend a demand type softener due to the heavy iron content in the well water I have. He said the iron may gum up the metering device. He may have a point here because when I clean the chlorine injector valve every 6 months, it is coated with iron residue.
My outside faucets use treated water.
Thanks Andy,
Tim

[Andy CWS]

Andy,

My softener is set to recharge at a rate of 8 lbs per recharge. I just today reset the rate from 12 lbs from the recommendation of the local Culligan man.
He also does not recommend a demand type softener due to the heavy iron content in the well water I have. He said the iron may gum up the metering device. He may have a point here because when I clean the chlorine injector valve every 6 months, it is coated with iron residue.
My outside faucets use treated water.
Thanks Andy,
Tim

It is very hard for me to understand why anyone, let alone a water treatment professional, would actually recommend a timer water softener. You would have to set tha to regen far more often than needed using excess amount of salt/water beyond typical usage.

If the pre-softener system does as it is designed, then iron for the softener hardware should not be an issue. Something is overloaded, undersized or not properly set up.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[timjet]

Andy
You said: If the pre-softener system does as it is designed, then iron for the softener hardware should not be an issue. Something is overloaded, undersized or not properly set up.

* What is the pre-softener system. Are you referring to the chlorine injector?
The chlorine is in excessive of 3ppm after the holding tank and before the carbon filter and softener. I am reducing this on a trial and error basis until I get your recommended .3 to .7 ppm.

* Can you confirm the water is routed correctly. It goes from the pressure tank thru the chlorine injector into the holding tank on to the carbon filter and lastly in to the softener. Is this correct?

* Does a softener rate of 8 lbs per recharge sound about right for 2 people.

Tim

Thanks,
Tim

[Andy CWS]

Yes, the Cl system. How often do you flush the retetnion tank...there is a drain at the bottom, right? 3ppm is very high. That really makes the carbon bed work too hardm shortening its life.

The spurts of iron you are getting my be build up of oxidized iron coming through occasionally. It can indicate the carbon bed is becoming saturated and most of that iron will pass through the softener.

Andy

[timjet]

Andy,

I rarely flush the 120 gal holding tank. It does have a valve at the bottom with which to flush it. When I do flush the holding tank, I turn off the water that goes into the bottom of the tank, and open a spigot type valve at the top of the tank. Opening this spigot type valve allows air to enter the tank thus allowing the tank to drain by gravity at the bottom.
Is this the proper method of draining/flushing the holding tank? How often should I flush this tank?

The carbon filter does need to be re-bed. As soon as I can find instructions on how to do this, I will attempt it. Same goes for the water softener. As I mentioned before, I will reduce the chlorine injected into the water that goes into the holding tank.
Can you confirm that the system is set up correctly as described in my previous post?

One more very important question.
Does the chlorine injector and holding tank eliminate most or all of the rust. Does the water softener play any part in reducing the rust in the water?
And how about the carbon filter. Does it play a part in eliminating rust?
Thanks Andy,
Tim

[Andy CWS]

RO systems make water taste really better...i got mine from here..
link deleted
i m totally satisfied with it...

Spamming is against the rules.

[Andy CWS]

Andy,

I rarely flush the 120 gal holding tank. It does have a valve at the bottom with which to flush it. When I do flush the holding tank, I turn off the water that goes into the bottom of the tank, and open a spigot type valve at the top of the tank. Opening this spigot type valve allows air to enter the tank thus allowing the tank to drain by gravity at the bottom.
Is this the proper method of draining/flushing the holding tank? How often should I flush this tank?

Yes, flush the system periodically. No, don't turn off the valve of incoming water. If it is the type of tank I thin k it is, the incoming water enters the tank a few inches above the bottom and the drain is at the bottom. So it circulates and flushes the particulates out. Unfortunately, since youhave never flushed it out, some of it may have solidifed and may remain in the tank even during flushing. The installer should have instructed here on this maintenance.

The carbon filter does need to be re-bed. As soon as I can find instructions on how to do this, I will attempt it. Same goes for the water softener. As I mentioned before, I will reduce the chlorine injected into the water that goes into the holding tank.
Can you confirm that the system is set up correctly as described in my previous post?

It is always difficult to accurately determine if it is set up properly at this distance. Removing the valve on the carbon filter can be tricky but it is doable. I can go into more detail when you are ready to go. Why do you think the resins in the softener need to be rebedded? It won't hurt to have fresh resins but it isn't always necessary. Check Cl levels often.

One more very important question.
Does the chlorine injector and holding tank eliminate most or all of the rust. Does the water softener play any part in reducing the rust in the water?
And how about the carbon filter. Does it play a part in eliminating rust?
Thanks Andy,
Tim

Actually, the chloirnation CREATES rust (Fe+++) so that it can be backwashed out. A softener has little effect over oxidized iron (rust) but can be very effective with soluable iron (Fe++).

Carbon backwashing filter CAN take out rust sediment but it is doing double duty in removing chlorine and rust which shortens its life. CArbon backwashing filters are not the best way to remove oxidized iron. It can become fouled making it useless. It is best to have a sediment reducing media before the carbon. Filter Ag is a typical media and sometimes this is used in a multi-media tank which includes carbon and other media.

Andy