well water help!

[Gary Slusser]

Certain Class-A models have transmittance monitoring devices as standard equipment. That is a fact. I used "clarity/turbidity" as a generic explanation for to OP. This is very different than light intensity sensors. UV bulbs may be putting out ample wavelength but the clarity of the water may not permit it to travel through it adequately. No Class-B system is able to do this to my knowledge.

Intensity monitors measure UV-C, the mj/cm2 after the light goes through the water but name those UV brands that have your transmittance monitoring. Neither monitor will monitor the wavelength of 253.7 nm. You need to read up on UVs, try the link below.

The US EPA sets the rules all UV manufacturers must abide by. You can read all about it at the link below.

I've spent about 90 minutes at the link below, THE authority on all things UV, see if you can find anything to support NSF Certification being necessary, I couldn't find a word about it. And especially check out page 50 concerning the minimum dosage required to deactivate E-Coli and other dangerous bacteria etc.; unless I'm reading it wrong, 16mj/cm2 seems to do it.

And your comment about lamps putting out the 40 mJ/cm2 at the end of a year, not true.

Also, I couldn't find anything about your claim of a prefilter being required for UVs; there are minimum water quality pretreatment requirements set and one of them is turbidity.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfe...uvguidance.pdf

I'm not sure what you mean by "rules" or how that can be true. I have never heard of an EPA official requiring the use of a Class-B system. You may have it a little backwards. In my experience it's the EPA that requires the use of Class-A systems (a designation founded in the NSF) in applications of public use. The NSF defines standards, set protocols, conducts tests and provided certification, not the EPA. So it does not surprise me that the EPA's link mentions nothing of those facts; it's not their job. That's easy to understand.

The EPA sets MCL standards for municipal and surface water quality among all other things to do with the environment like air quality etc., and the manufacturing of UV lights. No water treatment equipment that you or I or anyone else sells has to be NSF rated or certified, only the materials it is made of must meet NSF Standard 61 for potable water use. The link below will inform you of the UV part if you'll read it. I am not speaking about an EPA official doing, suggesting or requiriing me or you to do anything.

As usual you use your terminology instead of industry standard terms and then you put forth your personal preferences rather than factual information. The facts are that all manufacturers of UV lights must meet the EPA requirements stated at the link below. At one time as they may today, the EPA did an annual visit to manufacturers' plants to ensure they did as they are supposed to per the link below.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfe...uvguidance.pdf

[Andy CWS]

UV lights come in Class A and B versions. You want a Class A. Only A
can be used for the control of cysts and crypto.

[Gary Slusser]

Now you're making it sound as if you expect to find cryptosporidium and giaradia cysts in well water.

[Andy CWS]

The US EPA sets the rules all UV manufacturers must abide by.
The facts are that all manufacturers of UV lights must meet the EPA requirements stated at the link below.

Perhaps you can point out where it says this...? I find it strange that ALL manufacturers are being controlled by the EPA. But, please indicate where that is written. I just don't have the time to search through hundreds of threads.

So could I conclude that if I, personally, wanted to manufacture a UV light system, it must be done under the authority of the EPA and they could shut me down? Is that what you are implying?

What certification process does the USEPA provide? For example, a number or code to look for (NSF has Standard 55, Class-A)? How would a consumer know that it has passed their testing or is a valid product to handle pathologically dangerous water? Who pays for this testing? Can you a send a link of a product that provides this information in their advertising?

Nonetheless, ths NSF set standards for UV certifications and UV manufactures almost universally agree that Class-B systems are intended for non-pathological waters. I can point those out to you if you wish to learn more.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

I've told you repeatedly what I know but yes, the EPA sets the standards the UV light manufacturers must abide by. None of the links you posted are from UV light manufacturers. The NSF does not test/certify ALL UV lights, and you know that.

I see the link to the EPA I posted is not working now. Note that the title of the .pdf file is EPA UVGuidance.pdf (I have saved it on my computer, there are two versions, 1999 and IIRC 2001)

When clicking on my EPA link to that file, you now get a message saying:

Please inform the administrator of the referring page, http://www.filtersfast.com/forums/wh...ater-help.html , that the link from that site is broken.

I'm not about to find the file again but anyone interested can find it by searching for its name on the http://www.epa.gov/safewater site etc.)

Do you still think crypto and giaradia is found in well water?

Here is something I found at the EPA just now:
Targeted protection for over 70 million people served by ground water
not disinfected or receive less than 4-log treatment.
Avoidance of 42,000 viral illnesses and 1 related death annually.

You can read all about the new Ground Water Source Rules here;

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfection/gwr/pdfs/grg_gwr.pdf

And here's the biggie on UV:

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/disinfection/lt2/pdfs/guide_lt2_uvguidance.pdf

[Andy CWS]

I've told you repeatedly what I know but yes, the EPA sets the standards the UV light manufacturers must abide by. None of the links you posted are from UV light manufacturers. The NSF does not test/certify ALL UV lights, and you know that.

I didn't say that all UVs were tested by NSF, that's my point. And yes, I would like to see where it says ALL UVs MUST ABIDE by EPA standards.

I still don't any cerification or verification codes from the EPA. I do see them from the NSF. What certification process does the USEPA provide? For example, a number or code to look for (NSF has Standard 55, Class-A)? How would a consumer know that it has passed their testing or is a valid product to handle pathologically dangerous water? Who pays for this testing? Can you a send a link of a product that provides this information in their advertising?

Here are some links to major manufactures that state certification, level of mj/cm2, etc.

http://www.uvpure.com/pdf/Hallett30_SpecSheet.pdf

http://www.r-can.com/product.php?cat=1

http://trojanuv.com/en/images/Res/TrojanUVMaxPro10,20,30brochure.pdf

Well, I can see we can go round-n-round, Gary. I will continue to recommend the higher quality equipment, especailly when it comes to safety.

That's enough for me. Take care and I wish your customers the best of luck.
Andy

[Gary Slusser]

I didn't say that all UVs were tested by NSF, that's my point. And yes, I would like to see where it says ALL UVs MUST ABIDE by EPA standards.

I will continue to recommend the higher quality equipment, especailly when it comes to safety.

But it isn't higher quality, all UV lights deactivate bacteria. And as usual you got into your salesman speak attempting to sell the most expensive UV by misleading everyone that only certified lights are the way to go. Here's a copy:
UV systems are designated by the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) to Standard 55 as either Class-A or Class-B. Class-A systems to additional measures to assure water quality by requiring certain features that assure water quality. These can include, flow restrictors (for contact time), light intensity monitors (bulb function) and water quality (turbidity/clarity) sensors. If one of these features fails or reveals water quality problems, a solenoid shuts the systems down preventing contaminated water from coming through.

Does the NSF list or "designate" Class B lights; no they don't.

Facts, proven by some of your last links... All UV lights are flow controlled with flow restrictors etc., some UVs not listed or certified or "desginated by NSF have all the "certain features" you mention being "required" but aren't required. There is no such thing as (turbidity/clarfity) "sensors". And that all solenoid valves are optional. The last link I posted will tell you all about the EPA requirements.

And as we see at some of the manufacturer links you posted in your last post, not all lights are Class A or listed with NSF.

[Andy CWS]

There is no such thing as (turbidity/clarfity) "sensors". And that all solenoid valves are optional.

You are mistaken here, I'm afraid. Sensors that measure the condition of the water (clarity) as well as the intesity of the lamp are offered on some advance models. If the water becomes cloudy or turbid, the system shuts down. That is good information to know.

And as we see at some of the manufacturer links you posted in your last post, not all lights are Class A or listed with NSF.

Of course, they are designed for two types of water conditions, pathogenic and non-pathogenic water as describe in manufacturer's literature. I thought I made this clear but willing to go over it again for you.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

[Gary Slusser]

I've sold UV lights with and without sensors and monitors under DEP requirements and not. Show us a URL etc. to a "clarity" sensor or monitor on a commonly sold/available UV light manufacturer other than Kinetico.

LOL... so now how does a Class B UV light justify it's existence, or purchase price, IF it is not to be used on pathogenic water!! What is it used for if not to control bacteria?

The EPA says all UV lights producing 16 mj/cm2 deactivates most types of "pathogenic and non-pathogenic water" bacteria found in water